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Post by FireStorm ZER0 on Apr 9, 2009 21:10:05 GMT -5
LeoMike, the reason for no DLC for PS3 is mainly Sony's fault, Microsoft gives Bethesda development money which they use for things like DLC. Sony has the same choice, as they do for all games. So if Sony really felt the need to get DLC for PS3 owners they could, but why they don't... is a mystery yet to be solved, either that or they have more important things to invest in like corporate jets, or company picnics.
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 10, 2009 8:02:25 GMT -5
Okay so maybe the hardware is different enough, but it is true that the programming is practically identical. The same reason all those PC games are usually released side-by-side with the 260 version.
Now as for your Sony hate, please tell me the glaringly stupid flaw in the PS3. I'll grant you it's over-engineered, but 'glaringly stupid flaw'? Also, I'd contest your claims of ridiculous flaws in the PSP.
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Mr. Digits
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 11, 2009 1:27:33 GMT -5
Okay so maybe the hardware is different enough, but it is true that the programming is practically identical. The same reason all those PC games are usually released side-by-side with the 260 version. Now as for your Sony hate, please tell me the glaringly stupid flaw in the PS3. I'll grant you it's over-engineered, but 'glaringly stupid flaw'? Also, I'd contest your claims of ridiculous flaws in the PSP. Dude, to me, a glaringly stupid design flaw is where you sit there and say "I want to do x, and device y should be able to do it, but it doesn't because company z did not include the ability to do x." For example: I'm checking my e-mail on my iTouch. I get an email that includes a tracking number for a package; I want to enter that tracking number into the tracking app I have on my iTouch so that I can keep tabs on my packages without using the web browser. Only I can't, because versions of the iPhone/iTouch OS prior to 3.0 do not include the ability to cut/copy and paste. It's much the same with the PSP: My brother has a PSP; He has some UMD movies for said PSP; We have a 25" TV in our house that we would like to watch movies on, only we can't hook up the PSP to it, because Sony did not include the ability to output to an external display. As for the cripplingly stupid design flaw with the PS3, I'm not entirely certain what it is, but being that it's a Sony product, it must have one. If I were to hazard a guess, it would be the inclusion of the Blu-Gay drive -- it may have won Sony the HD-DVD battle, but it has certainly lost them the console war; there adoption rate of the Wii and Xbox 2 are each several times that of the Gaystation 3.
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Post by [CDF] LeoMike on Apr 11, 2009 6:13:11 GMT -5
Why say Gaystation, XBOX 2 and then refer to the Wii with its real name..? I thought I was getting a pattern there, I was expecting the Nintendo Revolution name to be used I don't agree with your design flaw comment, but if there was one on the PS3, it would be the lack of Sony exclusive games that truly use all the extra expensive hardware. To put an exaggerated analogy out there, it is a bit like playing PacMan on a supercomputer. Too many games are exact ports of 360 versions, which is a damn shame because the few games that use the hardware "fully" are excellent (Resistance 2 etc). However, this is not a design flaw, it is simply Sony not developing quickly enough.
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 11, 2009 7:26:30 GMT -5
As for the cripplingly stupid design flaw with the PS3, I'm not entirely certain what it is, but being that it's a Sony product, it must have one. Oh, come on. It's not like you to all-but-explicitly express a bias like that. I'm disappointed, Digits. How easily we call an end to the contest of the current generation. Again, I'm disappointed. Furthermore, Blu-ray is still a nascent technology. Given a little more time, and I believe that you'll be looking at DVD the same way you now view VHS; utterly inferior without exception. I'm saying that regarding the potential given the capacity on the disc and the reported flexibility of the drive, not out of any misplaced loyalty to Sony. Hell, right now I'm seriously hacked off with Sony, since I can't buy anything from the US Playstation store. Apparently the store detects where your IP address is coming from and blocks attempts to buy stuff from out of your region. Seriously angry about this. Moreover, I had no problems at all buying stuff from Xbox marketplace...
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 11, 2009 10:21:17 GMT -5
Why say Gaystation, XBOX 2 and then refer to the Wii with its real name..? I thought I was getting a pattern there, I was expecting the Nintendo Revolution name to be used Well, I don't really have any issue with the name of this generation's Nintendo console, but I have a huge bias against Sony (for very real reasons; through their corporate decisions they've basically called me an illiterate, dishonest punk who doesn't give a shit what they put on my computer. Nothing could be further from the truth. ) As for the name of this generation's Microsoft console, it just reeks of design-by-committee, and their "logic" behind the decision (at least what I'd heard of it) is extremely tenuous/vacuous. I don't agree with your design flaw comment, but if there was one on the PS3, it would be the lack of Sony exclusive games that truly use all the extra expensive hardware. To put an exaggerated analogy out there, it is a bit like playing PacMan on a supercomputer. Too many games are exact ports of 360 versions, which is a damn shame because the few games that use the hardware "fully" are excellent (Resistance 2 etc). However, this is not a design flaw, it is simply Sony not developing quickly enough. What I think you're seeing here is that game studios are finding that this generation's Sony console is a bitch to develop for; All the processing power in the world won't do you any good if you can't get code to make use of your processing power. As for the cripplingly stupid design flaw with the PS3, I'm not entirely certain what it is, but being that it's a Sony product, it must have one. Oh, come on. It's not like you to all-but-explicitly express a bias like that. I'm disappointed, Digits. Hey, as I said above, I have reasons why I Don't buy Sony products if I can help it -- Through their decisions on some marketing, and on shit they have included/include on their music/movie/software disks they have shown me how little they know about me; To assume that everyone in your target age-range for a product is a functionally illiterate and dishonest greedy little bastard who doesn't give a shit about his computer is totally unacceptable to me. I may be a greedy little bastard, but I am not illiterate, or a scumball, and I CERTIANLY give a shit about my computer; Shit, the thing as it is running on my desktop (not including my water loop or case for starters, which at this point have easily cost me 800-1000+ USD between the two) is over 2000 USD worth of parts if I were to buy them new today. Speaking of which, it looks like my original CPU was either a piece of crap from the start, or got damaged by running at high temperatures in the first week of use - I set my memory to XMP (which has it running 1866MHz @ 7-8-7-20 latencies, which if you look at tri-channel DDR3 kits is fucking amazing) and left it running Prime95 overnight; the threads on two of my cores have failed; Cores 1 and 3 have been cranking along fine while Core 4 had it's threads fail at <15 minutes and ~1 hour. Core 2 had had it's threads fail at ~3 hours 20 minutes +/- 3 minutes. How easily we call an end to the contest of the current generation. Again, I'm disappointed. Furthermore, Blu-ray is still a nascent technology. Given a little more time, and I believe that you'll be looking at DVD the same way you now view VHS; utterly inferior without exception. I'm saying that regarding the potential given the capacity on the disc and the reported flexibility of the drive, not out of any misplaced loyalty to Sony. Hell, right now I'm seriously hacked off with Sony, since I can't buy anything from the US Playstation store. Apparently the store detects where your IP address is coming from and blocks attempts to buy stuff from out of your region. Seriously angry about this. Moreover, I had no problems at all buying stuff from Xbox marketplace...[/quote] Before you go thinking "Blu-Gay may one day be a highly adopted format!" I want you to ask yourself a few questions: 1: How long was VHS on the market? 2: How long had DVD been on the market? As it stands, Toshiba only gave up on HD-DVD because Sony had moved more players (due to inclusion of a Blu-Gay drive in the Gaystation 3). I contend that from DAY ONE, HD-DVD was the superior format; My reasoning is as follows: 1: The difference in capacity between Blu-Gay and HD-DVD was due to the precise wavelength of light used in the laser; The wavelength used by HD-DVD had two immediate effects; Firstly that data was written deeper into the disk (making the disk more durable), and secondly that the disk had less capacity than Blu-Gay which had it's data much closer to the surface, and was thus much more vulnerable to damage. 2: Due to having lower capacity than Blu-Gay, it was more evident to the developers that they needed to standardize on a good method of compression; it is possible to to compress data without any noticeable loss if done right, which HD-DVD did. This also had a secondary effect of making the final image/sound quality standard across all HD-DVD disks. Sony on the other hand decided that 50GB should be sufficient for anything and that as such, any kind of compression, so they didn't standardize it. This is why there are some Blu-Gay movies that use highly sub-standard compression. 3: HD-DVD was FEATURE COMPLETE AT RELEASE; In layman's terms, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER EVER SOLD AT RETAIL for HD-DVD was able to make use of EVERY SINGLE FEATURE OFFERED with HD-DVD. This is a biggie that some of you Blu-Gay fans might want to look into -- I can find more details on this if you want. Sony on the other hand seem to have rushed Blu-Gay out the door; of the players availiable at launch, the only one that can meet today's current maximum Blu-Gay spec is the Gaystation 3, and that only because it does it's decoding in software using it's dedicated processors (Basically, because they can update the decoder software for it whereas other players used hardware-based decoders.). 4: The last point I will detail in this post is the price-point of players; HD-DVD was always the cheaper option, and as they were superior in all other aspects, it's a bit counter-intuitive that Blu-Gay beat them out (I'm not sure which won out -- the people-as-sheep bowing to the Sony brand, or the inclusion of a Blu-Gay drive on a Gaystation 3).
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Post by FireStorm ZER0 on Apr 11, 2009 11:24:36 GMT -5
That's crazy, this topic is for Fallout 3 but it seems more like an argument on the flaws of gaming consoles to me... just saying. I also agree with everything Tucker has said though, Gaystation 3, nice.
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 11, 2009 17:34:31 GMT -5
...[The] topic is...Fallout 3... Let me stop you right there; The topic is whatever I say it is.
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Post by [CDF] LeoMike on Apr 11, 2009 21:05:31 GMT -5
Your comment about BluRay not taking off any time soon due to its inferiority is a little incorrect. Historically the inferior products have become mainstream. Beta vs VHS, 8 track vs Cassette, LaserDiscs (remember those) and DVD, the still present DTS (predominantly Cinema) and Dolby Digital (predominantly Home use) format war, Composite vs S-Video. Not to mention the numerous data formats that have become popular without being the superior format (MP3 vs AAC etc). Generally speaking the inferior formats due to various reasons become more popular. I think you can safely say BluRay's future was secured with its inclusion in the PS3. I am no advocate of BluRay, but it seems like it is here to stay. It may not have the rapid rise to popularity that DVD had, because I genuinely don't believe it is radical enough to warrant people running out and getting one. However, it will slowly be taken up as people buy PS3s and newer Home Cinema Systems (with BluRay included) with their HDTVs. Hell anyone realise the irony that for once a Sony format actually won something??
AAC format is pretty much dead unless you bother to convert with it when using iTunes.
Minidisc (sob I loved those things), Sony's pet project that got killed well and truly by MP3 players. Although they weren't strictly superior to MP3 players, the Sony ones used the higher rate AAC format as standard. Generally speaking MP3 players use MP3 formats as standard but there is nothing stopping the user from ripping CDs at a much high rate.
JVC's VHS and SONY Betamax. Betamax was far superior in quality but the decks and recording equipment weren't miniaturized quick enough and the VHS took over because it was more portable and cheaper. However, News cameras continue to use Betamax today, despite the increase in the use of digital cameras.
I have simplified these comparisons and I am well aware there were other formats in between those listed, but generally speaking the inferior quality formats win.
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 11, 2009 22:29:37 GMT -5
Dude, it isn't quite as simple as you make it out to be;
Beta VS VHS: VHS wasn't that much lower quality, but you could record more per tape (but the quality took a hit), the tapes/decks were vastly cheaper, and VHS had the majority of the movie studios (including porn which wasn't as available for Beta)
8-track VS cassette: Again, 8-track was vastly larger and more expensive than cassettes. As time went along, the quality of cassettes went way up, making 8-track obsolete.
Laserdisks were basically CD's the size of records; DVD's are vastly superior due to their higher data density.
Composite vs svideo: I must admit that I haven't really done any research on this, but I would assume that this was due to the fact that svideo came on to the scene much later, and by the time it came out, there were better connector-types available.
As for MP3 vs others, I can only hazard a guess that MP3 won out due to it's relatively effective compression, acceptable audio quality, and player support. If it sounds good, is very small, and plays on what people have, them's some big gold stars....
Really what I was trying to say about Blu-Gay is that I see it as a passing fad; We really haven't run out the lifespan of DVD, and anything between now and when the next generation is released is just a stop-gap. I really think there will be something else in the next five years that will be able to support higher resolution TV's.
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 11, 2009 23:20:04 GMT -5
Before we go any further, would you kindly stop with the 'gay' appellations? It's getting under my skin. Before you go thinking "Blu-Gay may one day be a highly adopted format!" I want you to ask yourself a few questions: 1: How long was VHS on the market? 2: How long had DVD been on the market?
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Post by [CDF] LeoMike on Apr 12, 2009 7:01:37 GMT -5
I guess you can demonstrate El' point by showing how some of the final games on the XBOX were not far off in graphics to some of the first games that appeared on the 360. The same can be said for the Playstation and the PS2. It took a long time for people to push the graphics fully and understand what they could and couldn't do with the hardware. I believe the 360 has a bit more to go, the PS3 probably has a lot more to do, the Wii shows glimmers of pretty decent graphics and then reverts back to Wii Sports style (WHY!!!). I don't personally dislike the PS3 but I am unlikely to buy one any time soon. I will give my objective reasons for this. Price. I could have bought an entire sound system with BluRay/Div X etc. player. I paid £180 for my 5.1 upscaling system, so I can only imagine what I could have gotten with money equalling the PS3s price. There seriously aren't enough games to grab my interest. I like to wait for a critical mass of games (hence why I only recently bought my 360, there are just so many cheap games I want to play, plus new ones coming out). There are games that I do want to play, but I have already played most of these around a friends. Resistsance etc. The Playstation Network is not nearly developed enough. XBOX live hit the ground running and has only increased in features. I have noticed that the Playstation Network is showing glimmers of hope and I look forward to the things it may include soon. Finally, I know it is a petty comment, but the PS3 is ugly as sin. I don't like the feel of the plastics and the shape is clunky and wrong. The 360 is no beauty queen, but it at least has a uniform shape. Maybe there will be a slim-line version at some point (Not bloody likely considering the hardware, but one can hope). Bluray will see its day, but I doubt it will be as long lived as the DVD. I see streaming content and digital media storage as being the future of entertainment. Oh and if anyone can be bothered I could do with some city clicks leonite.myminicity.com/indleonite.myminicity.com/tra
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 12, 2009 19:20:00 GMT -5
@satanno: Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay Blu-Gay........
I'm sorry if it bothers you, but the shit Sony has done just pisses me off to the point where not making such easy shots at their products REALLY gets under my skin.
@leo: I tend to agree with most of your comment, but as for the looks of the PS3, I don't personally find it to be that ugly -- impractical, yes. Home audio/video equipment is often stacked; making such equipment that cannot be stacked is asinine.
Honestly though, I didn't say that PS3 is a bitch to code for, I said it's a bitch to code for if your goal is to use most/all of the system abilities -- I'm sure it'd be pretty easy to make games that look like PS1 games, but that isn't the point of having the latest and greatest now is it?
As for HD disk formats, I honestly think we'll see a new one in a 4-6 years that will have higher reliability, capacity, and will store higher resolution video. IMO, physical format releases will never die until EVERYONE has access to extremely high speed (by today's standards; I'm talking 100+ mbps bi-directional) fiber-optic connections...
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 13, 2009 9:54:59 GMT -5
It's not so much that it bothers me, it's just obnoxious when you're trying to have a serious discussion, which we are. That, and let's be honest, it's really juvenile. Yes, even for people like us.
Okay, so if you wanna squeeze the juice out of the PS3, you gotta learn the ropes. I'd say Killzone 2 is a pretty good expression of how far it's come. And Guerrilla has said that they're probably only pushing 60%. That's some shit, right there.
I've heard a lot of this talk about things going totally digital, and I'm with you 100% on this one, Digits. Can imagine the horror of having to download 50GB of data for every game? Jeepers cats. I don't see disc storage going anywhere anytime soon. Hell, I like discs.
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 13, 2009 14:12:38 GMT -5
It's not so much that it bothers me, it's just obnoxious when you're trying to have a serious discussion, which we are. That, and let's be honest, it's really juvenile. Yes, even for people like us. Okay, so if you wanna squeeze the juice out of the PS3, you gotta learn the ropes. I'd say Killzone 2 is a pretty good expression of how far it's come. And Guerrilla has said that they're probably only pushing 60%. That's some shit, right there. I've heard a lot of this talk about things going totally digital, and I'm with you 100% on this one, Digits. Can imagine the horror of having to download 50GB of data for every game? Jeepers cats. I don't see disc storage going anywhere anytime soon. Hell, I like discs. I can respect what you say in the first paragraph, but Sony just pisses me off sooooooo much.... As for your second, it seems that what you're saying agrees with what I said, namely that it's a bitch to write code that takes full advantage of the PS3's hardware. Also, as for disk-based shit, I remember back a few years when Adobe stopped sending out physical disks to their service providers (after CS2 and before CS3) it was a real bitch for my father to get his copies of CS3, seeing as he didn't a connection faster than dial-up until around 6-12 months after CS3 hit.
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 14, 2009 7:47:28 GMT -5
Holy hell, we agreed on something!
And yes, I am agreeing with you re: coding for PS3, but only partially. I'm not saying it's a bitch, just that it takes time to learn the ropes. Given that developers are under more pressure to produce on time than ever before, it's obvious that learning something new (even if superior) is not as efficient as using the old method.
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Post by [CDF] LeoMike on Apr 14, 2009 8:14:30 GMT -5
Hmm 60% hardware usage eh?? Man I would love to see something like "Bioshock 3" programmed completely at 100%.
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 15, 2009 6:41:16 GMT -5
I'm sure you'll see some real shit in the next year. That game inFamous looks pretty wicked. And have you seen trailers for Prototype?
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Post by [CDF] LeoMike on Apr 15, 2009 7:00:29 GMT -5
I'm sure you'll see some real shit in the next year. That game inFamous looks pretty wicked. And have you seen trailers for Prototype? Yeah Prototype looks sick in more ways than one.
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Post by Mr. Digits on Apr 15, 2009 11:59:59 GMT -5
I'm sure you'll see some real shit in the next year. That game inFamous looks pretty wicked. And have you seen trailers for Prototype? Yeah Prototype looks sick in more ways than one. I've seen bits and pieces about that -- Kotaku's been drooling over it...
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on Apr 16, 2009 11:11:32 GMT -5
I'm wondering how the multiplayer will work. But from what I've seen, it could be a real hella-slick blockbuster.
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Post by theargonauts on May 4, 2009 13:02:14 GMT -5
Talk about Fallout 3 dammit or you'll all get facefulls of gatling laser!
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Post by Mr. Digits on May 4, 2009 15:44:14 GMT -5
Talk about Fallout 3 dammit or you'll all get facefulls of gatling laser! So yea, it doesn't play well on an NTSC-resolution TV, and it doesn't play well on my PC (at least it didn't the last time I tried). It really sucks balls (in terms of stability) compared to Oblivion. Seriously, I can't remember EVER having Oblivion crash on me.
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Post by [CDF] Way on May 5, 2009 5:44:24 GMT -5
I can. However, the auto-save genreally makes it less frustrating.
Oblivion and Fallout 3 becomes more unstable the longer you play, generally at load screens. In fairness though, I played Oblivion a ridiculous amount. And Fallout 3, come to think of it.
Damn you, Bethesda, I want my life back!
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Post by Mr. Digits on May 5, 2009 7:31:16 GMT -5
I can. However, the auto-save genreally makes it less frustrating. Oblivion and Fallout 3 becomes more unstable the longer you play, generally at load screens. In fairness though, I played Oblivion a ridiculous amount. And Fallout 3, come to think of it. Damn you, Bethesda, I want my life back! I can honestly say that I played over 75 hours of Oblivion, and I can't recall it crashing, which leads me to believe that it happened so infrequently as to not be an issue (basically, it might have happened once or twice, but probably not many more times than that)... Although, those hours were on a computer with a Pentium 4 CPU and an ATi X700 Graphics card, so it may well be either an issue with newer hardware/drivers.
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Post by [CDF] Way on May 5, 2009 9:16:33 GMT -5
I can honestly say that I played over 75 hours of Oblivion Not even a third of my time. I have the good grace to be ashamed of that though.
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Post by Mr. Digits on May 5, 2009 19:40:14 GMT -5
I can honestly say that I played over 75 hours of Oblivion Not even a third of my time. I have the good grace to be ashamed of that though. That's my best low-end estimate; I'm sure the true number could be much higher.
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Post by [CDF] El Satanno on May 5, 2009 23:00:23 GMT -5
I have to say that Fallout 3 crashed on me a fair bit. Often enough that I stopped being surprised when it happened. Still, the auto-saving certainly served well to minimize my losses.
I got both the DLC packs (and what a f*in' hassle! Live blows goats!) and I'm really happy with both of them. The Pitt was more impressive, but Anchorage was no slouch. I'm looking forward to Broken Steel in a big way. Higher level cap, new perks, new weapons, new enemies!? Time to wipe the drool off the keyboard...
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Post by Mr. Digits on May 6, 2009 0:33:19 GMT -5
I have to say that Fallout 3 crashed on me a fair bit. Often enough that I stopped being surprised when it happened. Still, the auto-saving certainly served well to minimize my losses. I got both the DLC packs (and what a f*in' hassle! Live blows goats!) and I'm really happy with both of them. The Pitt was more impressive, but Anchorage was no slouch. I'm looking forward to Broken Steel in a big way. Higher level cap, new perks, new weapons, new enemies!? Time to wipe the drool off the keyboard... I take it you played TES4 on the 360?
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Post by FireStorm ZER0 on May 6, 2009 8:45:24 GMT -5
Broken Steel is badass, Hellfire Armor, lvl 30 cap, over 10 new perks, New enemies, and a tesla cannon.
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